帮人问个问题：有闲钱是买RRSP合适，还是还Mortgage合适？

[Tiger04]

作者: 游夫

这个问题还要讨论吗?
少PAY MORTGAGE,多支出5-6%的年利息.
多买RRSP,.
当然是后者优先了.可惜每年RRSP是有限额的.因此,可以这样安排资金:先买足RRSP,剩下的还MORTGAGE.当然如果年收入不多,不买RRSP税都能退回来,就暂时不用买当年的RRSP,把额度留到以后年收入高的年份再多买RRSP.
有人会说,RRSP到你取出来的时候要付税.那是对退休后每年仍有大量收入的人而言,对大多数平民来说,退休后收入有限,取出的RRSP基本不需再付多少税.

It is not that simple.

If you do not pay Mortgage, you have to pay 5-6%的年利息 every year!
If you buy RRSP, you 少付22%的税款 one time only, plus you have to pay some 税款 later whenever you withdraw.

4 years of 5-6%的年利息 = 22% one time.

[Tiger04]

作者: 多伦多市政府

买RRSP先,
MORTGAGE是什么意思?是银行给可以买房人的一种福利,

MORTGAGE=福利?? , why did you say 我买房都是3年半了,这个悔啊,肠子都青了 in other post? (From: http://www.chinasmile.net/forums/sho...t=37390&page=3). 福利=肠子都青了?

Try to be consistent! is that why you call yourself 市政府 because 市政府 is always change the policy? haha, I got you!.

[Tiger04]

作者: 多伦多市政府

就忘了RRSP每年7-15%利滚利的增长了,

Look carefully, I said "It is not that simple.", because some people only compare the one time Tax cut rate of RRSP with 5% interest rate on mortgage and forget mortgage interest rate has to be paid every year till paid off.

you are somehow right. The performance of the RRSP is a key to say which one is better.

If you can make RRSP每年7-15%利滚利的增长, of course buying RRSP is better than paying mortgage, but who can guaranty that? However the 5% or more interest on Mortgage is fixed.

so it is a personal choice here, not simple answer.

[Tiger04]

作者: ca416371

I agree with you on this: it is not that simple. However, the rest of your post, I can't agree with.

1. Money put in RRSP are going to get its returns tax defered;
2. I can call back ALL the tax later when you are taking money out of the RRSP account. What you need is just a good strategy.

Thanks for reminding me these:
1. the gain on the house price increases (for own living house)or the money saved on rental are not tax defered, but totally tax free
2. the one can pay off the mortgage first, and then buy the RRSP to catch the tax cut benifit, because the RRSP room can be defered forever.

[Tiger04]

作者: ca416371

I agree with you on this: it is not that simple. However, the rest of your post, I can't agree with.

1. Money put in RRSP are going to get its returns tax defered;
2. I can call back ALL the tax later when you are taking money out of the RRSP account. What you need is just a good strategy.

Thanks for reminding me these:
1. the gain on the house price increases (for own living house)or the money saved on rental are not tax defered, but totally tax free
2. the one can pay off the mortgage first, and then buy the RRSP to catch the tax cut benifit, because the RRSP room can be defered forever.

[Tiger04]

作者: ca416371

1. the gain on the house price increases (for own living house)or the money saved on rental are not tax defered, but totally tax free
As long as you still live there, it is tax free. However, when you sell it, it is another story if you don't plan beforehead. If you do not sell, what is the benefit the so-called price increases going to bring to you?

2. the one can pay off the mortgage first, and then buy the RRSP to catch the tax cut benifit, because the RRSP room can be defered forever.
Seems either your English is not good enough to catch my meaning at all, or you are just trying to mislead others. There are a lot of ways to get your RRSP money out of the RRSP account tax free. However, not every one has enough knowledge to make the necessary arrangements.

1. It is not another story even you sell it. what I know is if the house you try to sell is your prime living house (not rental property), it is totally tax free.

2. sorry, I did not follow your second point there. it seems you misunderstand my point. when I say tax cut benifit from RRSP. I did not mean the time get the money out of RRSP. some people said when they buy RRSP they could save some tax right away, 30% or whatever. I just want to remember that you could always get that tax cut later, if you pay your mortage right now and buy RRSP later.

[Tiger04]

作者: 游夫

RRSP每年都可买呀，这不相当于每年22%？

for example,

if you have RRSP room $10000 every year, that means if you buy RRSP in full every year, you will save tax: $10000*22%=$2200. after 3 years, you save $6600, and use $30000 your income. you can not save $10000*22%*3year+$10000*22%*2year+$10000*22%*1year=$12000. that is what I mean you can save the tax cut benifit 22%(or whatever) once in a life time.

comparing with someone who use this $10000 in their mortage, the person will save $10000*5% every year till you pay off your mortage. use above example, for 3years delay of total $30000(of course if you do not buy RRSP, you might not have $30000 in hand, because you have to pay tax), you have to pay interests: $10000*5%*3year+$10000*5%*2year+$10000*5%*1year.

That is the different, hope you can understand.

Just want to remind you, you could alway get the $6600 tax saving on $30000 RRSP later, because the RRSP room can be forward forever, which means, if you do not buy any RRSP in the above example, in fours year, you will have total $40000 RRSP room. if you buy it in full, you will still save $8800 (the same result as you buy RRSP every year).

[Tiger04]

作者: ca416371

Tiger04: Your calculation makes no sense to me. Let me show you something. .........

You know why you always make no sense, "Seems either your English is not good enough to catch my meaning at all, or you are just trying to mislead others."(your words )

Look what you have done:
1.When I try to say prime living house is tax free for selling, you talk about property house is taxable.

2.When I try to say you can always buy RRSP to catch the tax benifit, you talked about you could make money out ot RRSP without tax

3. When I try to explain someone why RRSP is one time only tax benifit and mortage interest rate is always on till you paid of, you talked about another calculation.

4. I just use someone's data to explain things to make it simple, so I pick up the 22% and add a word "whatever" to show other people the number will be changed for different people, and you still catch 22% as a point.

5. In my calculation, I said "of course if you do not buy RRSP, you might not have $30000 in hand, because you have to pay tax", but you still make no sense for that, and did another calculation.

boy, you need build up your sense from now!

I will in another post to correct your calculation.

[Tiger04]

作者: ca416371

Tiger04: Your calculation makes no sense to me. Let me show you something.

OK, now suppose she is getting some RRSP first, say 10k/year, that means she is making 10k/18%=55k/year, and here in Ontario, her Marginal
Tax Rate would be 31.15%, not 22%. For simpilicity, let's make it 30%. So the 1st year she is saving: 10k*30%=3k. Let's just look at this 10k.

The key benefit of RRSP is that ALL investment gains within are tax sheltered. Now let's assume she is making only 4% gains there, which is VERY SAFE to get, with a risk which is next to none. In 20 years, the 10k money she has there would be: 21.9k.

Now let's see what happens if she does not buy RRSP, instead used this money to pay back mortgage. 1st she is taxed 30%, which means she has only 7k to pay back the mortgage. With 7k @ 5%, 20 years later it would have been: 18.57k or 18.6k. She could have taken 21.9k out of her RRSP to pay off the mortgage and save herself 3.3k on this 10k! Make sense?

For simplify the problem, I will use all your data, do not say somthing to change the data again

1.when you "taken 21.9k out of her RRSP to pay off the mortgage ", how come you do not need to pay single tax?

2. let's do calculation step by step.
1)when you buy $10000 RRSP to creat 21.9k in 20 years, you used $10000 RRSP room, did you?
2)so for the person who use only 7k to pay mortgage instead of buying RRSP,saved $10000 RRSP room, right?
3)then after 20 years, he/she could buy this additional $10000 RRSP and save $3000 right away, right?
4)18.6k+$3000=21.6k
5) then the things need to be compared are: 21.6k(pay mortage then buy RRSP) with 21.9k-tax (buy RRSP then pay mortage).

even you can find a way to make 21.9k out of RRSP without paying any tax, the two things is still almost equal.

this time make sense to you?

[Tiger04]

作者: ca416371

Tiger04: OK, you are using my numbers, that is cool. We are finding something in common at least here.

Remember, in the RRSP case, I am using a 4% annual return, which is VERY conservertive, and which is lower than the mortgage interest rate, 5%. The fact for nowadays, however, is that floating mortgage interest rate should be arround 4%, and the return in RRSP if you hold for 20 years as AT LEAST 6%. The reason I chose the numbers reversed as 5% vs. 4% is just to show you that even in such a situation, you can get more returns from RRSP than returning mortgage fast. Though I chose it, it is not a fair case. Make sense?

As of how to get money out of RRSP is a secret I don't want to discuss here. You can do some research and try to figure it out yourself. Good luck.

I know you are going to argue with the number

Mortgage rate of 5% is for only 4 years terms right now, which is in the historically low. and even with the lowest rate, if you try to fix 20 years term, it should be over 6%. and what if it jump to 16%? (this rate happened before)

that is why I said it is not smiple answer

[Tiger04]

作者: 潜水艇

4。此时投资帐户以18万为基数增长，负债的12万需要付投资利息。
5。基金年假定增长为8％
6。投资利息为10％，但其中8％会返还到投资帐户中。实际利息为2％
7。由于投资部分的增长（18万×8％＝14400）大于负债部分利息的支出（12万×2％＝2400），因此基金处于累积增长。

where did you learn your math?

如果在6中你认为负债的12万需要付投资实际利息为2％, 那末在7中投资的18万应改为6万,因为其余的12万的8%的基金年增长已经在6中被抵消了.

[Tiger04]

作者: 潜水艇

其中12万贷款按照合同付利息10％，计1.2万。同样按照合同，1.2万中的9600元被重新放回投资帐户，1.2万中的2400元作为实际的利息。
则本期的盈亏为：（18×1.08-12×10％＋12×8％）－18＝1.2万元
就是说，你用6万自有资金加上12万贷款获得了1.2万的纯利。

什末叫"1.2万中的9600元被重新放回投资帐户"? 这9600是作为新的贷款还是做为回扣给你的?

[Tiger04]

作者: 潜水艇

回扣

从来没听说过回扣是自己所得的4倍. 而且实际利率才2%,银行存款利率都不止2%,他们怎么挣钱?很难让人相信.

[Tiger04]

作者: 潜水艇

卖的永远比买的精
在投资人的投资部分小于保单价值（假设为100万）时，投资人的借款额度只是投资人投资部分现值的90％。就是说即使投资失败，投资人在去世时兑付的100万足以负担。保险公司没有任何风险。每个人都会去世，那么这100万是迟早要赔付给投资人的。可是在投资人却在几十年间因为使用了迟早要属于自己的资金而在支付利息。

即使没有风险,也不应该有这么低的利息(2%). 房屋抵押贷款只算房屋价值的75%,对银行来讲也是非常安全的,可是也要5%左右的利息. 如果银行只要2%的利息,完全可以买债卷,为什么要借给私人呢? 里面还有其他条款吧.